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Event Emcee
We are going to be recording live. You see the on-air sign right there. We have some fabulous folks here with him, and Spencer, take it away.
Spencer Levy
Yes, indeed. The show you're about to hear was recorded in front of a live audience at the most recent gathering of the CBRE Women's Network in Park City, Utah. We score you an invitation to that special edition of our show. On this episode, a discussion of office and workplace real estate featuring an investor with a global portfolio and an occupier with an innovative approach to workplace real estate in an industry that's commonly steeped in traditional thinking.
Laura Saklad
We have challenges in front of us, but the word of the day is optimistic, and I am optimistic about where we're headed.
Spencer Levy
That's Laura Saklad, Chief Operating Officer of the Orrick law firm, which serves 25 markets across the United States, Latin America, Europe and Asia. Known for its forward looking approach to office talent, ESG and more, Orrick recently made it eight years and counting as one of Fortune's top 100 best companies to work for.
Julie Ingersoll
Real estate in the old days was boring. You buy it. You set it, forget it. You collect a coupon. What an exciting time to be a real estate investor.
Spencer Levy
And that's Julie Ingersoll, Chief Investment Officer of Americas Direct Real Estate Strategies at CBRE Investment Management. Overall, the firm has around $150 billion in assets under management and a team of more than 1000 people in over 30 offices around the world. Coming up, an owner and an occupier, not to mention a live audience, all coming together at the CBRE Women's Network. I'm Spencer Levy, and that's right now on the Weekly Take.
Spencer Levy
We're going to do The Weekly Take live from the stage. And we have Laura Saklad from Orrick, COO. Laura, thanks for coming out today.
Laura Saklad
Thank you. It's really a pleasure to be here. And very briefly, I just want to say how honored I am to be invited to be with all of you. And being part of this roomful of talented, impressive women has been just great. So thank you all for having me join you.
Spencer Levy
And we also have Julie Ingersoll, Americas CIO for CBRE Investment Management. Julie, thanks for coming out.
Julie Ingersoll
Thanks for having me. I love the energy and women power in this room and I can't wait to be here in five years and hear how we're all CEOs taking over the world. So, glad to be here and looking forward to this hopefully most uplifting session of the day.
Spencer Levy
Absolutely uplifting, and we are the only session standing between these fine folks and the wine tasting. So, boy, that is a tough act to follow us. So let's get going right now. So we've all been here today talking about some of the challenges in the marketplace today. Some of them are going to come up today, but there is some glimmers of good news out there, notwithstanding the fact that the overall office market is casting a pall over the broader industry. So let's start from your perspective, Laura. As COO of Orrick, one of the largest law firms in the world, how do you see it?
Laura Saklad
So I'm very optimistic. We are clearly facing a tough time. We are seeing a lot of change in our real estate portfolio. Spencer had asked me to give you just a general sense of sort of the portfolio that I manage together with CBRE. We have about 26 offices and we have about a million rentable square feet in real estate, about $80 million a year in annual rent. So that's the size of the portfolio. About 80% of it is here in the U.S. Over the past ten years, we've seen a lot of change. We have entered seven markets, we've exited two. We have downsized in seven of our offices, four of which have been moves. Three have been subleases. But all of that is about creating a new workplace that's going to bring the talent of the future back into the workplace, help us collaborate, help us serve our clients in the way that makes the most sense and help us maximize profits candidly for us and for our clients. I think it's going to be different. I think we have challenges in front of us, but the word of the day is optimistic, and I am optimistic about where we're headed.
Spencer Levy
I like that word optimistic. What's your take on the market right now, Julie?
Julie Ingersoll
Well, I would say the crystal ball has never been murkier. That said, going with the theme of the session of optimism, there's great investment opportunities coming our way. We're going to do some really interesting things for our investors in our portfolios going forward. We really need to focus in this next cycle on within a market, specific block by block selection, really separating the winners from the losers, not just in office but also in logistics and multifamily. As we see, we're going back to the old days of real estate investing where you had to pick the higher barrier to entry assets. You had to really pick your battles and be sharpshooters instead of taking a broad swath of investment. So what I tell my team all the time is, real estate in the old days was boring. You buy it. You set it, forget it. You collect a coupon. What an exciting time to be a real estate investor. You know nothing. Everything's changing constantly, whether it's e-commerce or return to office. That makes it a really fun and compelling and exciting time to be a real estate investor.
Spencer Levy
Well, that's optimistic. Laura, Orrick is one of the largest law firms in the world. And I think it's important that we talk about this, how you treat young lawyers in terms of your workplace decisions, return to office decisions, as distinct from other folks, because different professions approach it differently.
Laura Saklad
It's a really good question, and it's one that we've been struggling with thinking as we think about return to office. We have been what we might sometimes call on the bleeding edge of liberal in terms of being really permissive and seeing great opportunity in the hybrid workplace. We see opportunity to recruit talent from multiple markets where we might not otherwise have access. We heard about the advantages that it really gives in terms of our young women lawyers as they have children and making it easier to sustain that work life balance. So we have been very excited about embracing the opportunity of hybrid work. We have had some of our young lawyers actually ask us for greater clarity. They’re trying to understand what's expected. They're trying to figure out their place. And that orientation that we had around your teams should dictate when you need to be in the office. That was our messaging, you should be in when your teams are in. We have proved that lawyers can be incredibly efficient and productive from home. So, mixing up a message, and we've seen some of our competitors do this, where it's a story about productivity. We don't think it's a story about productivity. We think that being in the office is a story about training, it's a story about collaboration, it's a story about feeling part of something that you care enough about to really bring your best self to work. And so that's the way that we are talking to our young lawyers. As we look to see what the trends are and are people coming back, we are seeing a very slow uptake, to be candid. We are at about 40% midweek in terms of office attendance. Candidly, partners are in more than associates, which is sort of remarkable. We are seeing only 10% on Mondays and Fridays. That's sort of not happening. You can imagine, obviously, the challenges this presents on the real estate side. But our new messaging is just we want you to be part of the firm and part of the culture. And we're seeing the younger lawyers coming in more frequently. They are looking for the training. We are seeing, candidly, a bit more uptake from our majority lawyers than from our attorneys of color. We hear anecdotally that there is some relief of some of the pressure being able to work from home and not being able to show up as your true, authentic self. That's something we're really focused on and worried about because we want all of our lawyers in the office and participating fully. So we're thinking about it holistically. But our young lawyers are embracing working remotely and looking for opportunities to connect, and it's a matter of finding the right balance.
Spencer Levy
Julie, let's get a little bit more specific. I'm going to put this in the terms of OpEx versus CapEx because I think we all talk about CapEx in this room because most of us are real estate people and we're all real estate people and CapEx is what we do. We put in a new lobby, we put in a new gym, we put in new, hip, cool stuff. But maybe OpEx is underrated. Putting in live entertainment, putting in things that will get people back to office. And dare I say it, and this is where I jump the shark here, Julie, what about lunch? And I say that because one of the reasons why people get fatigued is because they're working all the time. When I say working all the time, this little puppy, this little phone never leaves my side except when I'm having dinner with my family and I lock it in my car, okay? It's the only way I can get some rest. But what about that? What about having the lunch becoming the centerpiece of the day, other forms of entertainment and downgrading CapEx, particularly in times like today when CapEx is dear and very difficult to finance.
Julie Ingersoll
Now, just to be clear, Spencer is advocating for lunch because he likes the drinking lunch. Okay. So he's a big proponent of that. So if you want to get in good with Spencer, have a drinking lunch. That's why he's there. So let's talk about that. I think your question is, what can we as landlords do to assist our occupiers, right? And getting a broader response to coming back to the office, to making the office the magnet for attracting your workforce instead of the cubicle farm? We have this great program at CBRE Investment Management called above and beyond and truly what above and beyond is about hospitality. It's about programming that OpEx in. But it's not just about lunch, right? It's about a free coffee and candy and snacks, obviously, it's about having yoga, terraces, outdoor opportunities, moments for people to meet up and collaborate and getting out of that back to back Zoom. It's about landlords creating opportunities and helping our occupiers find ways to bring their talent back to be mentored and trained and collaborated. Interestingly, we have an asset in the South End in Charlotte, and our biggest amenity is a brewery at the bottom. And because of said brewery at the bottom, we have a brand new asset and donuts across the street and retail and it's in a great location and it's up and coming. But having the food and the light in there and the programming is what is required to get Laura to select our building, even if she's reducing her footprint 25 to 50%. But it's not just the programming, it's not just the OpEx. You have to spend the CapEx, too. There is no free lunch on the office side today. And importantly, you have to be in the right location. Location, location, location. In this last cycle, you could buy secondary market, tertiary market. Everything was the three cap, right? It didn't matter. We are back to delineation of the good and the bad. And the good has to have it all to attract Laura and her crew, and most occupiers today.
Laura Saklad
So just to bring this point home, we are actively in the market in San Francisco and New York, and we are building in DC. About three years ago, when we signed on for our space in DC, we were really excited that there was an onsite conference center that we had contractual rights to use for a certain number of days per month, and that was a big, big deal. We were thrilled. We didn't have to build as much conference space in our space. Now we're looking in San Francisco and we just had a meeting with a building that is ideal on so many fronts, but they did not have the amenities that we needed to bring people back. And they spoke with us about the investments that they're making. And it's not just the conference space. It's creating a very social environment where people can get food or bring food and sit and eat in another environment or have meetings outside of their workspace, but in a setting that's quiet enough that they can have a productive conversation. The gym, the end of trip facilities, the bicycle locker, all of that. And it is incredibly compelling and it is going to make a difference in terms of our selection. So I've just seen it evolve even over the past two or three years from just being about having on site conference space to having all those additional amenities that really go a long way to bring people in.
Spencer Levy
Let me ask about something that's not technically an amenity, but it's always been one of the big selling points in the office sector, which is height, just pure height of the building. And I've been saying this for several years, and I think it's true now, given where some of these new locations are, is that height as a value enhancer has been devalued and that people want the amenities not necessarily in the building, but at the streetscape? What do you think?
Julie Ingersoll
Yeah, I would absolutely agree. It's that live, work, play environment that many mixed use developers in the room have been striving for. Do people want to live right next to work? I don't know about that, but it is having that mix of experiences and opportunity. And I agree it's, remember the View and how we would do all of our office planning and our office underwriting and every floor you go two bucks up per foot up the floor. Well, it's just not as valuable anymore. And it's your experience. It's just like retail, right? We're moving into this experiential… we've all just come out of our dark bedrooms where we hunkered for two years. We crave the human experience not just for retail, but in office as well. And that is what you need, the total package, right, to be the winner in this arms race from a demand perspective, because the thing people always talk about is return to office. But the reality is, the densification story continues, the densification story is real, and that's going to cause a net reduction in demand. So in order to get to attract your tenants, what's required is to have the total package, and that does include those ground level amenities, food and entertainment.
Spencer Levy
So let me push this one step further, if I could. So, Laura, you suggested that the amenity package in the building matters most. So I would go back to another episode of The Weekly Take. We had Mary Ann Tighe on one of the shows and we asked her, well, what's the number one amenity in New York? And I thought she'd say, open air space, or… she said, New York is the number one amenity. The question I have is, you get a great neighborhood, but the building is second tier with amenities, but the neighborhood is where it's at. How much does that play into your decisions?
Laura Saklad
So that's a tough trade off. Truly, my folks want it all, right. They want to be in the right neighborhood. They want to be in the great building and they want the amenities. You know, we have set a target actually that's been helpful to us where we've said that we want to spend a certain percentage of revenue per office on rent. And right now our target is about 5.5%. It's been a useful tool in having conversations with our lawyers in a partnership environment to say this is a conversation about tradeoffs, right? And if we want to get to that 5.5%, we can trade off the neighborhood, we can trade off the amenities, we can trade off the height, you know, where we are in the stack, ideally. And luckily CBRE has helped us get it all. So kudos to you all. But that's the conversation that we're having. And I think it's important to try to hit on as many of those metrics as you can, because it is hard to attract people if you're not in the right neighborhood, even if you've got the amenities.
Spencer Levy
Let's now turn to a topic that Laura, actually you opened the door to, which is the ESG topic, which is a big topic. And I think that most of the time when we talk about the ESG topic, most people, just as a matter of fact, talk about the E. The S gets lesser treatment. So let's start with the S this time. I think that among the things that we're seeing from some of our biggest occupier clients today is thinking about the S in a way not just for their employees, but for the neighborhoods and the types of real estate. So, Julie, when you're thinking about the S, when you're thinking about neighborhoods, what are you thinking about housing, is there any way that these asset classes come together either by neighborhood or maybe, and this is maybe taking one step too far, I think the streetscape matters more than anything. That's just my opinion. But any thought of getting into the retail near your buildings or putting up housing near your buildings to try to make the buildings more attractive?
Julie Ingersoll
I would say that given the supply demand imbalance, right, the best occupiers can have it all. And in the foreseeable future, that demand supply paradigm is what's going to drive occupancy and rents in our assets that we are prioritizing from an investment perspective, which is this concept of responsive office, hospitality driven, responsive to the needs of investors. But what we're doing in Atlanta, similarly to Microsoft, is we're building a life science campus and we put in the housing first as well, and that's being delivered and topping out in advance of the life science. And, you know, life science in Atlanta, maybe not something you guys would roll off your tongue. It's a little bit, let's call it avant garde, and emerging and how we're approaching that. But that's because there's this great university system that has a lot of access to talent and scientific talent, and they have no facilities for those universities to invest in to create more there, from a life science ecosystem perspective. So yes, it has made a lot of sense to deliver multifamily ahead of the office, mostly because you can get financing and equity for it today, unlike office, which is a little, little trickier. Even life science, which was a little more popular from the equity and debt side and has had some slowdown in fundamentals. So there is this concept of doing that, but part of it is necessity based, maybe not as groundbreaking and strategic maybe as you would like us to say.
Spencer Levy
Let's stay on the ESG topic and let's now get a little bit more granular from a personnel perspective, because we could talk about neighborhoods and we could talk about the mixed use. And I really do believe in the mixed use. And because we are seeing many of our clients talking about putting housing next to their offices for a lot of reasons, but we have people with so many different diverse backgrounds, we're trying to get more of them. What are we doing from a real estate perspective to enhance that?
Laura Saklad
So staying and maybe focusing on the E part of the equation, we do find that the young talent that we're trying to attract today care deeply about what we're doing to be responsible citizens, right? And trying to manage our carbon footprint. We have made a commitment to, at a minimum, be LEED Gold. And this year and the year prior, actually, for the first time, we sought WELL certification, which was really an education because it's a lot about personnel policies as much as it is about workplace standards. And it requires an investment, both of money and time and personnel costs. But our people really do care about it. We're also paying attention to different learning styles, the way that people engage with the environment. Some people are more sensitive to stimuli than others and trying to think about how do we create different workspaces that enable people to be as productive as they can while they're in the office. So it's just being holistic in our thinking. And I can tell you from the conversations I've had with the recruits, and I'm sure you guys all see this as you're recruiting talent, they are asking questions about it. They are looking for demonstrable evidence that you're making a positive contribution. And when it comes to picking buildings for us, knowing that the buildings are helping advance us in that goal so that we candidly have to spend less money to get the certification because the building is halfway there for us, it makes a big difference.
Julie Ingersoll
Avoiding your topic of S completely and just focusing on the E there Spencer. So, the conversation has changed. So our European colleagues are deploying a Brown to Green strategy for office because that's where core capital today is investing. That will come here in the U.S. As we think about our value-add office investing strategy, we're not necessarily buying Brown to Green, but Green is a major feature of that being attractive to core buyers. When core buyers come back to the office market, and they will. It may take ten years, but they will at some point. There is no doubt, and we're seeing it across our portfolio, that having the carbon offsets, the carbon emission reduction, the certifications, but also increasingly the climate hardened materials to withstand wildfires, flood, wind, will be increasingly important, not just to an investor and achieving a premium on exit, but to our occupiers. Our RFP is for office space. While we don't get thousands of them daily like we used to, they increasingly have an ESG component. Occupiers want it. We need it for the sustainable execution of our buildings to save on expenses, and energy prices aren't going down, and then we need it on exit. So it feels like with the exception of a few states, all these asset flows, capital flows, tenant demands and just realities of what's happening with our climate are all colluding to result in buildings that are healthier and better constructed and more resilient for the future. What I love about this cycle, it's just like what's happened in retail. What happened in retail was, there was always this landlord versus the tenant. And I think the pandemic really taught us how to change that paradigm. I think this office disruption is also changing the paradigm. We are partners now with our office tenants in so many more ways than we used to be, and I think that's just going to continue to improve our relationship going forward.
Spencer Levy
Let me push back just a touch. What I'm hearing today from landlord clients is that they can't make any investment, green or otherwise, because the cost of capital is too high, their capital structure is underwater. So the pushback question I'm going to just give is this. Is E taking a back seat in the short term or is it full steam ahead given some of the capital constraints we're seeing?
Laura Saklad
From our perspective, we have had some challenging conversations with our board about the investment that it will take to get to net zero and whether we're ready to make that commitment and whether we are truly ready to change at the biggest lever on this, which is not necessarily real estate, it's travel. And are we really willing to do that? So there is a commitment that does get balanced by a business reality and we are trying to set some realistic goals. So from our perspective, I think it's more about, for us, about changing behavior and a willingness to change behavior to accomplish those objectives.
Spencer Levy
I'll ask Julie the same question, but I'm going to add a wrinkle to it. Property and casualty insurance is going through the roof. A lot of people don't know this, but the cost of property and casualty insurance right now, I was with multiple clients in the ULI event this morning, 30 to 40% per year. Year. It's a major issue, particularly in multifamily, where you can't pass the cost along to your clients. And it's more important or more challenging in Florida and California, those places that some places are just losing their insurance. And so, the problem today is the resilience word, which you used a moment ago, Julie, is. we're all in violent agreement on that word, but none of us are from the insurance companies. And the insurance companies aren't giving you credit for it. So how much of these property and casualty insurance, the water, the hurricanes, those types of things factoring into your current resilience decisions or where to invest it all?
Julie Ingersoll
Well, first, I'm going to answer the question you didn't ask me, which is, environmental spend is not driving the perform of an office deal. Let's put that in perspective. It's your basis and the hundreds of other renovations you pushed off and didn't feel like you could make a return of. Putting in a new HVAC system and some LED lighting is not going to drive your office performance. So let's be clear about that. Anyone who feels like they're suspending their spend on sustainability initiatives is fooling themselves. That's a short term solution and not a strategic one. So I'll just put that out there. So let's talk about insurance. So we had a discussion the other day with our team, which is, should Florida multifamily require a higher risk adjusted return? Let's just say for Google's prospective, we could all go out and buy multifamily core at a unlevered nine. Should the risk adjusted return you acquire for Florida, even including some 30% per year increases in insurance require ten, right? How should we think about heat domes in Phoenix and how many days of over 100 degree weather did we have in Houston, Dallas and Austin this summer? How about California? What should an investor ask for in terms of a risk adjusted return for these markets? It's not just insurance, folks. It's taxes, right? We've got a major issue with municipal taxes. Oh, and by the way, property management, if anyone saw a wage chart on wage labor growth, well, it's all hitting us on the expense line as well. So there is a real squeeze on the multifamily side, especially where you can't, now that we're not able to drive rents as we did in the last couple of years. And the real question is, are you underwriting it properly? Do you even know how to underwrite this? And then, what is the risk adjusted premium that an investor should be looking at given what is rapidly changing? So like I said, that makes it really fun. No one knows. And so we're going to have a lot of discovery on different opinions of that.
Spencer Levy
Let's now turn to things that you didn't think about before. What you didn't think about before was electricity, water. How important is water and electrical availability today? It's, to me, it's everything in data centers, maybe not so much in office where you sort of take it as a given. Is that a fair way to put it?
Laura Saklad
I think it is, from our perspective. I mean, just to be candid, this is… questions about access to water, access to electricity is not something that we tend to delve into. We're relying on you guys to figure that piece of it out. That's my answer on that.
Spencer Levy
Short answer. But I'm actually going to deviate from the program for a second because we need audience participation. Kristina Metzger, one of our data center leaders. I'm walking off the stage completely impromptu, and she hates me now. But Kristina, water and electric, data centers. How do you deal with the issue?
Kristina Metzger
Yeah, well, with a data center, you don't have a data center unless you have power. So it is the constraint limiting supply of new product across North America, and really globally. Water is becoming increasingly more challenging as well. However, there are solutions that you can instill like air economization and ocean air cooling, where you don't utilize water, that can help minimize that, but that also requires more electricity, which compounds the first problem.
Spencer Levy
So basically, if you're in data centers right now, Northern Virginia, very tough to build a new one because they're out of electric, isn't that correct?
Kristina Metzger
Correct. I would say even more so than that, though, is anyone here from the Silicon Valley or kind of the Santa Clara area? So right now in the Silicon Valley area, you cannot build a new data center for probably 10 to 15 years if you're not already in the queue for power. So the access and availability of power is a very meaningful constraint. We feel it a lot more significantly on the data center side because the amount of power that's being utilized is so astronomical compared to other product types. But even in other parts of the globe from just multi-family or other uses, you're seeing constraints relative to distribution or required blackout periods and things that are affecting all of us.
Spencer Levy
So I guess the moral of the story is, depending upon your asset class, your market, these issues that we used to only care about rent growth, CapEx, things like that. Wrong answer. We're in a new world today where it's not just for, because it's the right thing to do. It's actual scarcity that is driving some of these decisions today. So let's go to my favorite question, and I bring this up in a lot of these things. And the big debate that I have about workplace is productivity versus efficiency. That is like my, one of my things. And I think very often we use proxies for productivity, and the proxies for productivity are surveys that say, are you happy, hiring and firing? What are you doing beyond just the surveys, the happiness, the feedback, the billable hour, if anything, to try to measure that and to achieve that?
Laura Saklad
We are incredibly proud to be a firm that touts the fact that we are a best place to work. And for us, that means a couple of things that I think are worth talking about just briefly. For the lawyers to be productive, I think they need to feel, for anybody to be productive, forget about just being about lawyers. We focus on early at bats. Giving people those stretch opportunities, sponsoring them, pushing them forward. We talk about giving them flexibility. So a while ago, we introduced a model that took our associates off that standard lockstep progression where everybody advances at exactly the same rate. And we really did adopt what we call the lattice approach, which was really taken from Deloitte. We try to measure how happy people are and we do surveys all the time about how inclusive they feel the workplace is. And we don't just talk about diversity, we set metrics, we measure them. I know all of you, the women people here have been running the Women's Network for so many years. It is about setting targets and it's about coming up with metrics to measure change, and it's about holding yourself accountable. So we look for that. We also look at wellness. Wellness is an incredibly important focus right now in our industry, and I'm sure there's a similar amount of stress and pressure that's going on for people in this room. Focusing on people's mental health is incredibly important and we have taken steps. One of the things we did and we talked about the billable hour is we've introduced, it's something that we call unplugged time. And for us to make that real, to say you need to step away to recharge in order for you to bring your best self to work, we give people billable credit towards their bonus for that time that they take off when it's unplug time after they've been incredibly busy. So we look at sustainable high performance, and what can we do to make that a realistic option for people. And we are really focused on being a data driven organization, to your point. Looking for different ways to capture not just billable hours but breadth of experience, realization, client satisfaction, all the things that we're all looking for. But if we don't become more data driven, I think we can easily kid ourselves about the progress that we're making.
Spencer Levy
So we're just about out of time here. So I'm going to ask Julie, what is the most optimistic thing you could say right now about the market, about office, or otherwise?
Julie Ingersoll
I would just say the investments we make over the next couple of years will be the best vintages we'll see in the next decade. That is really exciting. I would also parrot some of the prior panel. You will learn, you will stretch, you will evolve, you will discover mental resilience within yourself you never knew you had. And so you'll be a better investor, you'll be more resilient and you'll have a lot of new skills you probably never wanted, but you will have them after this cycle. So lots of things to be optimistic about.
Spencer Levy
Laura, as our guest, we’ll give you the final word. Words of optimism to our great audience.
Laura Saklad
I think in closing, I would just say I think it's a time of incredible opportunity. We are reinventing the workplace. We are figuring out what it's going to take to bring people back. We're going to test different approaches. We're going to fail. We're going to succeed. But that's way more exciting than doing things the status quo, the way we've always done it. And I think that with the talent we have in this room and with the talent we all have in our companies, we're going to figure it out and we're going to come out stronger. So, I'm looking forward to it.
Spencer Levy
Well, let's hear it for Laura and Julie, and thank you for all listening into a live taping of The Weekly Take. Thank you Women's Network for a world class event. Rock on and on the wine tasting.
Spencer Levy
Well, cheers to our guests and to the CBRE Women's Network for a lively event. And to you for tuning in. For more, please visit our website, CBRE.com/TheWeeklyTake. We hope you will help expand our network here on the show by sharing this program along with your feedback. You should also subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen. We'll be back next week to bring you more great shows as the holiday season kicks into gear, including a show on mixed use retail featuring the real estate leader of an operator, nearly 100 million square feet of leasable space. That's a lot of potential holiday shopping. We'll also cover multi-family housing. We'll sit down with an entrepreneur who's out to disrupt the restaurant industry. And we take a trip with an adventure traveler who's literally walked and peddled a bicycle across continents, to bring you lessons for business and leadership. Plus: our annual year in review for 2023. For now, thanks for joining us. I'm Spencer Levy. Be smart. Be safe. Be well.
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